This talk took place at Volterra, on the 25th of July, 1986. The beginning of this talk was not recorded. In this extract, Shri Mataji is defining the relationship between soul and the Spirit. The analogy She uses involves light, water and the glass that contains the water. The light would be the Spirit, the glass the body and the water which reflects the light, would be the soul. We pick up the talk when Shri Mataji has just given the analogy. One can see an image of chakras reflected in the glass.
Shri Mataji: Then it (the light) comes in there. This (the glass) is the body. All the five koshas, the five auras, koshas, are there. So these five koshas are managed by the five elements, the essence of which can be called the causal element, the causal of the …
Gregoire: The causal of the five elements. What we know as atma in Sanskrit, is it the soul plus the Spirit, or only the Spirit?
Shri Mataji: Jivatma is the soul but atma is the Spirit.
Gregoire; so jivatma is the Spirit but individualized; belonging to one person?
Shri Mataji: No, no, jivatma is the soul, means with these five elements, and these five elements give you your own identity, your own character, your own particularities etc. These five elements – the way they are placed in you. That’s the causal element, the causal of the elements that are within you. Then these causals act on the chakra and through the chakras these causals act on the other, on the grosser side. So from the subtle to the subtler to the, you can say the subtlest. The subtlest we can say is the Spirit, supposing, then the subtler is the soul, and the subtle you have the chakras. And the gross is the body.
Gregoire: So England should reflect on Italy then? (Mother, on a previous occasion, had told us that while England is the Spirit, Italy is the soul of the universe).
Shri Mataji: That’s why all the art grew from here (Italy). Now soul is the essence of all the elements of this Europe, which is here, and England is the reflection. So England has to reflect on Italy.
Another Sahaja Yogi: See, the water in the glass is reflecting the light. England is the light and the light has to shine out of Italy which is the water. I mean the five elements in a way.
Her Holiness Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi, Gregoire de Kalbermatten, and others